Conversations for Leaders & Teams

E85. Navigating Complex Change: Leading Through the Unknown

• Dr. Kelly M.G. Whelan • Episode 85

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Julie Jenkins and Dr. Thomas Anderson II explore how leaders can navigate complex change by embracing curiosity as a way of being rather than seeking stability or rushing to solutions.

• Complex change differs from linear change—there's no step-by-step process, only sense-making and educated guesses
• Leaders create the "weather" for their teams—their approach to uncertainty directly affects how others respond
• Moving from a controlling leadership style to a curious one requires sitting with the discomfort of not knowing
• Breaking out of leadership defaults requires self-awareness and intentionally designing new responses
• Creating spaciousness, asking one more question, and mapping out knowns versus unknowns are practical leadership tools
• Resistance and readiness are two sides of the same coin—resistance signals important information
• Embracing paradox ("two things can be true") helps teams move forward despite uncertainty
• Approaching change as experiments allows for learning without judgment about right or wrong
• Being vulnerable with your team builds trust that sustains through uncertainty

Remember that leadership during complex change doesn't require having all the answers. Be kind to yourself, extend compassion to others, and trust the process of learning as you go.


Connect with our experts on LinkedIn:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/julie-jenkins/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/thomasandersonii/


BelemLeaders–Your organization's trusted partner for leader and team development. Visit our website to connect: belemleaders.org or book a discovery call today! belem.as.me/discovery

Until next time, keep doing great things!

Speaker 1:

Well, welcome to Conversations where today we are going to be talking about complex change and how leaders can hold that complexity through the lens of curiosity as a way of being. Today we welcome in Julie Jenkins and returning guest Dr Thomas Anderson II. Both are experts in their field of organizational development and change. It's good to see you both, welcome. Welcome, how are you both today and where are you coming from?

Speaker 2:

So I'll get us started. Good morning In my part of the world. I am coming in from Calgary, Alberta, Canada. It's so wonderful to be here. Thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 3:

Yes, I am coming from Germantown, Maryland, and thank you for having me as well.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely, absolutely Well. We're going to be talking about complex change and the leader's role and the work that you're doing. I would first love for you to tell our listeners how you met. Who'd like to?

Speaker 3:

tackle that. Well, since it was since I initiated it, I will tackle that. I reached out to Julie after having read her master's thesis on coaching cultures and it was such a great read. It was so full of insights that you know I reached out, as I do, dr Whelan, as you well know. I put the cold emails in.

Speaker 1:

You know I reached out, as I do, dr Whalen, as you well know with the cold emails and you know, julie responded and rest is history and I love how it's okay to do that. When you and I think more people need to do that Like if you're reading something on LinkedIn or wherever you, you know, see something that you're like, wow, that is exciting and I'm really interested in about that People, most people would find that that's kind of fun. Was it fun for you? Was it interesting, julie?

Speaker 2:

It was really flattering, honestly, I thought, because going into a master's thesis, I was told nobody's going to read this and you're going to find maybe one or two people who find this at all interesting for their scope of work. And then so to get an email from Thomas to be like, hey, I saw this and I actually read it, and can we meet, I was like, oh my goodness, I was so flattered, I thought that was amazing and it's been such a wonderful connection.

Speaker 1:

Well, I'm looking forward to the work that I know that the two of you are going to be bringing forward, and I'd love to. We're going to be talking about complex change in the leader's role, but I would first like is there a difference between we hear about, you know, within organizations? There listeners identify what complex change may be and how it's different than just a regular change effort.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely so. I often think about change on sort of a spectrum between transactional, transformational and that's how I really thought about it sort of my whole career. You know the transactional being very straightforward there's a stepwise process to follow things, transformational sort of being on that side as we don't really know where we're going. Sometimes, but we know where we are right now isn't where we need to be or where we want to be, and so then how do we move in something that feels more aligned to our vision, our strategy, our outcomes, our clients, our partners? Complex change in my mind sort of takes that a little bit further, in the sense that complexity means that there's so many things happening all at the same time that there's no way to sort of sense make, and so all the time we're trying to figure out what's the best decision, where do we go next, and really only in retrospect can we see if the decisions that we made in real time got us to the outcomes that we were looking for. And so often that I find that, at least in the spaces that I sit I work in education, higher ed that there's this real need to start to think of things in the change space is quite linear. You know what's step one, step two, step three, Complex change sort of turns that on its head because there is no steps. There know what's step one, step two, step three, Complex change sort of turns that on its head because there is no steps.

Speaker 2:

There is no right way, there's no. This is the next thing that we do. There's only like can we make sense of what's happening in the environment and make a best guess or an estimate, and then really spend some time learning. And it's through that complexity that we have to sense, make, go out into our environment and then come back and make it as best and educated guess as we can as to around what is our next step. But we're never going to know until we sort of sit and look in the rearview mirror and say, oh yeah, you know that that was the thing that really helped move us forward. Or oh gosh, that was a lot of learning. That didn't feel really good, but here's what we can do because of that moving forward.

Speaker 1:

Thank you for that, Dr Anderson. Do you want to add anything to that?

Speaker 3:

No, I think that was a very articulate response, I think the only. Well then, yes, the only thing that I would add and it's not an addition, it's more underscoring the fact that answers, a lot of answers, are not available in complex change. You can't always understand or articulate why when you go into it, but maybe it's a gut feeling. But, yes, all of that, all of what Julie said.

Speaker 1:

Excellent and how important for leaders to look back, or the team to look back, the organization to look back and see what was important for us to learn from that complex change, I think is crucial and many times it's a misstep, for leaders to sit in that, yes. Well, julie, you wrote a post on LinkedIn pondering what is the role of leadership when everyone is holding their breath waiting for the next wave of change. I'd love to hear what prompted this for you.

Speaker 2:

Yes, so. So I work in organizational development, like I said, in higher education and within the Canadian post-secondary higher ed space. The federal government came down last summer and made some pretty big, sweeping changes to international students and their ability to study in Canada, and these changes have had far-reaching implications across all provinces of the country. And so, working in this space, what I have continually seen since last summer is like just everybody waiting right. It's like we're going to wait for the next set of updates from the government, we're going to wait for the next set of decisions by our senior leaders, we're going to wait for what you know the province decides to do, you know similar to states in the United States, like what is our province going to do in response to what the federal government has done? And so every conversation that I was going into, it just felt like well, when things get stable, when the next wave of change comes, when we get some more information, and it felt like that we were just constantly waiting for this next something, whatever that something was, to feel like we could move forward.

Speaker 2:

And yet I just observed that everybody was holding their breath and it was like we're just we're just holding, waiting, and in change.

Speaker 2:

That doesn't really happen all too well, you know, because we, I don't think stability is a thing anymore.

Speaker 2:

I think that there's a real shift that we're going to have to start contemplating around instead of trying to figure out how do we get to that next stable place, what can we do in the here and now, and what are those skills or those ways that leaders can show up? That provides a sense of stability in this moment, but doesn't necessarily mean that we're waiting for the next thing. And so what prompted this post was just me observing in my environment the conversations I was having with leaders around, everybody just be like white, knuckling it, like we're almost there, and then the next email would land or the next news update would come, and everybody's like, oh God, like. And so it was just like the perpetual, like riding these, like very tumultuous waves, and it's, you know, it begs the question, at least in my mind what else can we do if we sort of accept that this is not going to change and that that stability is not maybe something that is going to come in the same ways that we've seen that prior?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and Thomas, when I think about leaders, many times instinctively they're fixers or problem solvers. Many times, instinctively they're fixers or problem solvers. So maybe when you think about that, how important is it Like what, what, what Julie was saying with the communication with your people when you're going through complex change?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and when Julie brought up waiting, I thought and I made a little note here about active waiting and inactive wait. And holding our breath is more of a type of inactive waiting, and I think the role of the leader would be to, number one, detect that, if not just with their people and this is central to our work with themselves, with that self-awareness piece, to realize that people are holding their breath. Am I holding mine too, you know, am I anxious? What is going on for me? But then with the, so that's the you know inactivity. You know I don't know what's going to happen, things are uncertain, but then once you breathe out what happens, and for a leader, I think it can be powerful. You know what?

Speaker 3:

The words of Warner Burke. He said a leader's role is to elicit the foresight that is in the organization, is within the team, and so you can, you know, a leader can move from the inactive waiting and even move their people from the inactive waiting to that activity of. Okay, let me shift my role a little bit. Maybe I don't have control, but maybe I don't have control of what's going on on the outside. What do I have control over that's going on on the inside? And then the extension to my team.

Speaker 1:

And it sounds like a wonderful coaching opportunity for both individuals and teams. What say you? Yes, absolutely. Helping, helping the individual leader, like you said. You know, actually question and have that self-awareness and for them to then get curious about if I'm feeling this way and if I'm exhibiting this, then what is my team feeling and exhibiting?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, I recently heard the expression that leaders create the weather and I loved this idea of you know how we're showing up, what we're doing, what we're not doing. You know, are we waiting and how are we waiting? Is it active waiting? Is it not Like that is projected onto our teams in some ways? And so, you know, recognizing that in ourselves, I think really is the first step in getting curious about that. Like, oh gosh, like I feel that I feel that tension in my chest, I feel like my stomach nodding out, like oh, I got to go into this next meeting and I don't know how I feel about. Like that curiosity and that place of starting to sort of make sense of that is a really beautiful place to start before we even get into our teams, because our teams are going to pick up on that.

Speaker 2:

You know what's said, what's not said, how we show up. You know, are we hurried? Are we avoiding questions? Like, are we leaning in? Are we inviting dissent, like all of those things I think really set the tone for how we can show up as leaders in these complex spaces and it really like I so appreciate what you said, thomas too around it. It starts with us, it comes back to us and sort of starting with our own sense of what's going on here.

Speaker 1:

before then I go out there yes, yeah, and so maybe to continue on that, the leader's style, like, how is the leader's style?

Speaker 3:

going to impact, maybe not necessarily the it. Within the bounds of the framework that we have emerging here, we have a controlling style and we have a curious style, just to simplify it a little bit and so the controlling style is dictating, it's telling people what to do. A curious style is sitting with the discomfort of not knowing, the discomfort of not knowing. The curious style is also, maybe, journaling about some things that could cause anxiety, some things that are, you know, making knots in their stomach, or you know, a lot of times these things happen at two o'clock in the morning and the leader's up, and at two o'clock in the morning and the leader's up. So that's the best time to figure out what has me awake when the rest of my neighborhood is sleeping and for my neighborhood, I can look around. Sometimes, you know, at two o'clock in the morning maybe there are one or two lights on. That's just the entrepreneurial life or the life of a leader, you know. But in the quiet moments, what's going on with me? And you know, so that all impacts the style.

Speaker 3:

You know I was on a call with a consultant from New Zealand the other day and he was telling me about you know, I'm getting his ideas about this coaching tool that I've come up with and I've been using it for 20 years, and you know, I'm just getting out there.

Speaker 3:

He said. I asked him, I said, well, who would this not work well for? And he told me, well, probably the higher-up lawyer, the person who has it all together, the person who has all their steps. So for me, you know, and not to, you know, put a type on it, but just the person, you know, I think of a type, A person who's driven, who always has the answers, who always is expected to have the answers. You know, that person is going to show up differently and it may be harder for them to adopt a different style altogether, style altogether. But there are some things that can be done, like, you know, just open questioning, you know, just asking people questions that don't have a yes or no answer. That can bridge the gap between that controlling style and that curious style.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and I'd add to that too, that we all sort of have these default spaces that have served us in some ways. We've, you know, we come into leadership positions and we bring with us sort of our life right, like there's life behind us. You know, even if I think about my own leadership journey, you know, there have been those experiences where I, you know, I still think about them today and they happened 20 years ago and I say, under no circumstances am I going to do that thing again. And so then I flip to the other side and then there's things where I'm like, oh gosh, that was so good. I, I'm going to do that again because I liked it.

Speaker 2:

But at some point, whether it's good or bad or it adds or detracts it, there's also sort of this idea of default. So we're coming in into these default spaces and we might not even know that we're defaulting in some ways. And so for me, I also think about you know, how do we move from that controlling into that? Curious is also to really spend some time thinking about what are the defaults that I'm bringing into this right? I think that's why reflection is so important is because we can sort of surface, you know, oh, that was that thing, or there's that pattern again of us doing that thing again or that's sort of how I show up, oh, that's interesting.

Speaker 2:

And to use it not necessarily as a tool to sort of shame or berate or, you know, put us through our own, you know be our own worst enemies in many ways, but to use that as a way to say, huh, that's interesting, do I like that, does that serve me?

Speaker 2:

And you know when we can move, I like to call it, you know, when we move from default to design, when we understand what that default is, then we can move into choice, around what we want to design, and that in of itself, in my mind, is also a curious act. So how do we get curious around those things so that we can sort of identify how we might be showing up? What is the cost of that? Is that serving us? Many of the things that we have serve us because they've gotten us to where we are today and that's not bad. Is it going to serve us moving forward, and I think, in change? That's the conversation we need to have with ourselves sometimes as we think about how do we lead in these very complex change times that you know are constantly changing.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so maybe what are some more leadership attributes or what leaders really need to be looking at if they're going to be leading through complex change?

Speaker 2:

to be looking at if they're going to be leading through complex change. So I'm happy to start. There's a few that come to mind. Megan Reese, out of the UK. She talks about this idea of spaciousness and how do we create opportunities for spaciousness, and I think that can be uncomfortable, especially if we're so used to defaulting to this fix, command, control, take the reins, take charge. I think that's a really beautiful one.

Speaker 2:

I think another sort of skill or I'm not sure if it's a trait, but a skill that we can lean into is and this I heard this for the first time out of Michael Bungay-Stainer's work around how do we ask one more question? So, instead of us feeling like we need to jump in, right, we've got the answer, I've got the advice, you know, I've got this how do we just, you know, maybe pause and ask one more open question and then you know, I think, not to put too fine a point on the piece of curiosity, I think there is that you know that space when we feel something, and not to dismiss it or to override it, but to to just sit with that maybe a few seconds longer and get curious as to what is that, as we head into to these conversations, into these decisions, which you know are hard. They're very hard sometimes. How about you, thomas?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah, I um. Thanks, julieie. I'm just sitting here bursting, uh, thinking about different things, um, and I don't I don't want to go back too far but to keep it on point, I'm just thinking about, like something very practical, that somebody who's just stuck in those wear patterns of life or those cycles, just to break the cycle, take a different way home. I live in the DC area and Washington DC's traffic I live right outside of Washington DC. Our traffic is horrendous, it's well known. But sometimes I will get off of the highway and I'll ride through the countryside, which is only. It only takes maybe five more minutes to get home, but the amount of energy I have when I get there and the type of energy I have when I get there is totally different. You're not clutching the steering wheel, yeah, exactly, and I'm able to move into creative spaces, or you know just, you know that spaciousness, I like that and I actually wrote it down, yeah, so yeah, that would be one major thing.

Speaker 3:

Another thing is just mapping things out. I've found that it helps me, it helps my clients. Just to, you may not know everything, but it may help to see what you don't know. But if you don't get it out in some kind of way if you don't express it and some people are more talkers, other people are more introspective and like to write, but if you don't get it out, it's hard to know what you do know versus what you don't know, what you have control over versus what you don't have control over. It helps to just map those factors and see where you are.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so we've heard a lot about the things that that leaders can be doing to help with complex change. If I have a leader who's tuning into this and they're not recognizing, maybe, the harmful side, what might some of that? Harmful behaviors or, um, you know how they're?

Speaker 3:

I can start. This is one scenario. That leader may look like the leader who's rushing in and telling people what to do, but it could also look like a leader who's convincing and persuading people that this is the right thing to do and not picking up on the resistance. I always say, when it comes to change, that resistance and readiness are two sides of the same coin. And it really goes. You know, it goes back to the person that you're talking to, or the group, or the stakeholders, you know. Just looking at that and being honest about what's happening.

Speaker 1:

Julie, do you have anything to add there?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I really appreciate that question because I think it sort of flips it on its head. You know all the things that we can do, but maybe some of the things that we're doing that we might not even be paying attention to, or the ways that we're showing up that are creating more harm. I think one of the things that I think about, too in this space is and we'll give you an example of this, because I see this a lot and it's something that sort of irks me but then I also appreciate why Like I can understand why people do this. So I heard a story recently about a senior leader who had gotten some intel from an engagement survey that indicated that there was a real discrepancy between how people felt like they were being supported, included the level of transparency and some pretty big changes. And they decided that the best solution for this was going to be that everybody, every leader in the organization, was going to need to meet with their team for 60 minutes a week and this was going to be the solution for everybody.

Speaker 2:

And I was sort of taken aback because I think what tends to happen and I use this example because it's so salient for me right now but I think there's this real tendency sometimes to try and find simple solutions for complex situations, and my caution would be that if, as a leader, you're saying we're just going to do this and it becomes sort of like the blanket statement that everybody needs to follow, that too can lead to some pretty adverse outcomes, you know, at least from my lens and my backgrounds in organizational psychology.

Speaker 2:

It sort of erodes everything that takes so long to create trust, engagement, organizational citizenship, behaviors, you know the going above and beyond the community building, and so my, I guess what I would love to just sort of communicate is that if you find yourself being like, well, this is the answer, and not going and getting some additional intel, or going out and finding people to sort of either provide you know intel that this works or that this makes sense, or, you know, maybe we need to think about some other things. No-transcript, we sort of expand that out to think a little bit more broadly so that we can. Yes, it might take a little bit more time on the upfront, but how do we go slow to go fast so that we can?

Speaker 1:

yes, it might take a little bit more time on the upfront, but how do we go slow to go fast, so that we can create that commitment long term and to see the things that we ultimately want for organizations or people and ourselves as leaders, and even you know, I find it interesting because, sure, we can meet with our team for an hour a week and I'm all four teams getting together, you know, but what is happening within that hour and is the leader able to coach the team? So there's so many things that are within that.

Speaker 3:

So, like you said, you know being compliant, okay, well, I'm going to meet with my team, because I've been told this is what we're doing, but then it has to go beyond that, yeah, yeah. And if I could add this, I think the 60 minutes, or you know a period of time, in the right circumstances could be helpful. But when change is upon you, when it's knocking down your door, I don't know that that's helpful. And so it brings me to my point. It helps to start earlier.

Speaker 3:

When it comes to change, change Foresight is best elicited, is best drawn out early. Those early warning signals out on the horizon that are a year off, two years off, even sometimes three months off, can make a big difference. But if we're talking about we need to change yesterday, then that means foresight is not doing its job. And if it's the leader's job to elicit the foresight, I'll leave it up to your imagination what's happening and what's not happening. As far as the leader's role is concerned and I'm not blaming the leader, I'm saying that this is imperative in this environment that leaders add that you know just drawing the foresight out of the team, because it's impossible for one person to know everything and to see everything that's going on.

Speaker 1:

And looking at what are those external factors? Right, it's not just about what's internal, like you said. Looking out at the horizon for sure. Yeah, what else, before we close, would be important for you to to communicate?

Speaker 3:

When it comes to sense-making, julie, you, you mentioned sense-making earlier and I want to bring it full circle, because it is at the early stages of change. It's almost impossible to help people make sense of something you don't yet understand. But when leaders go through, you know, do the work to, you know, just pick up on what's going on, the people, they, and you'd be surprised, you know, if you're a first-time leader. I tell first-time leaders this how much people are just scanning the horizon picking up on what's going on reading the not newspaper? Well, what's going on reading the newspaper? Well, some people do still read the newspaper. More people are reading what's going on online.

Speaker 3:

But you know all this information, we're intaking information every day and so the answers are in the room. The leader, the leader's job is really to pick up on that collective wisdom. The wisdom is there. It's just a matter of pulling it out and figuring out what to do with it. And then you know that adds the granularity to the picture. You know the change vision is out in front. That adds the granularity and then a leader can more easily help people to make sense of what's going on.

Speaker 2:

And I would add to that too is, you know, once you have spent time gathering that wisdom in the room, it's giving yourself and others the grace to say we're going to try, and it's not going to be perfect, and you know, this commitment that we're going to make, we're going to come back in three months and we're going to see did that get us where we wanted to be? I often find that leaders have really good intentions and then it's like we're going to do this and then it falls off when it comes to the impact. And there's it's. I think it's a function of a lot of things, but you know, at least in my world, it's just like the next thing, the next thing we got to keep moving and, and so there's never really any time to sort of spend understanding what was the impact. The intention is usually pretty good, right, we want to keep our businesses moving, we want to keep our people good, we want to be okay, Like we. Like there's good intention, and then the impact is where it falls off. And so I think, in that sort of sense, making at the beginning it's to give you know, yourself and everybody else, the permission to say we're going to try this, and there are going to be things that are great, that we love. There are going to be things that don't work. It's not a reflection on whether it was the right or the wrong, or the good or the bad, it's more what are we learning? Okay, that didn't work, Cool. Now what else can we try? Because our intention is to do X Right? I'll give you an example.

Speaker 2:

Last summer, as part of an opportunity to really connect the OD work that we do into our larger HR function, I sent out an email every Monday and I was like here's what's happening in organizational development, here's the upcoming courses, here's the upcoming things that you can participate in. We said, you know, we gave terrible jokes and sent terrible memes just as a way to sort of have some fun. And so we did that all summer. We started in June and we ended in August and we went out in September because we had heard nothing all summer. There was not a single reply, not a single mention of this. There was nothing. It was just radio silence.

Speaker 2:

So we went out in September and asked some people what did you think about it? Did you like it? And predominantly, people came back and said it was nice, but that was all the feedback we got, and at that point I decided OK, what did we learn? Well, we learned that it's really important to be communicating out what we're doing in this space. So people are aware you know it's really important. You know, I learned a really valuable lesson about consistency, even when there is no feedback, because that's, you know, a good practice for us to be building.

Speaker 2:

Was it the right way to be connecting with our broader HR team? No, everybody's busy. It was another email. People were feeling like, if I get to it, that's great. There were some people who were even feeling guilty that they didn't get to it. They were filing it away. But that's okay, we learned.

Speaker 2:

So we stopped that and we've moved on to other ways of experimenting around. What can we do to communicate and create a bigger and more cohesive HR team? That's all learning, and so I guess what I would offer in this space is then make and then try and come at it with just sort of this I think Adam Grant talks about it as sort of like the mindset of a scientist Like what can we learn? What's our hypothesis, what can we take away from this, what can we move into our next experiment? And I think that's so valuable in this space of complex change, because there is no one right way, there's no step A, phase two. You know there's nothing that's linear about this. So how do we create experiments, create opportunities to reflect and learn and then integrate what works and to move on and beyond what is holding us back or costing us too much in that moment?

Speaker 1:

us too much in that moment. So when I hear you talking about these wonderful ways that a leader can show up and be for their people, for me it's like the anxiety goes down. You know, I could just, I could just feel. You know, if this was you and you're talking to your team, if they had anxiety, it would be coming down. You know all those emotions that they have because this has changed. I feel that they would be put to rest more and then people are able to be thinking clearer about what the next step is or, like you said, what the learning is and things like that. But that takes a leader who is curious and who is intent on learning about not just the change effort but their people and establishing those relationships.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, one of the things that I hear myself saying often right now is two things can be true we can still feel anxious about change and we can find a way forward. Yes, we still might know what the we don't know what's coming tomorrow, and we can still make a plan. And you know, in the space of paradox which really that is the only way to move through a paradox is acceptance, and so when we can hold two things or more, there's often more things that are true at the same time. I think it does create an opportunity for people to feel like they don't need to be happy about it or sad about it, or they can, they can just be, and then we can figure out a way forward. That's right.

Speaker 1:

Okay, you two, I'd love to give you the last word. That's been a terrific conversation on complex change and what that looks like, and how leaders can show up and, as you said, just be. So what say you, thomas? We'll start with you and then we'll go to Julie for the last word as well.

Speaker 3:

Thank you, dr Whalen. One thing that is popping up for me to tell leaders is to be kind to yourself, and that is advice I've received from you, dr Whelan, and it has not only changed my life, my business, but it's also changed my family, and I tell my daughters you know what, in being hard on yourself, also be kind to yourself. So that comes back to the paradox. You know, two things can be true. Thank you, julie.

Speaker 2:

Yes, yes, yeah, and I think that's such a beautiful segue to you know, it can be really frustrating sometimes.

Speaker 2:

I think, to try and hold that space for ourselves as leaders and me in this change, and then to also hold that space for me leading a team in this space, and so be kind to yourself, give yourself the opportunity to learn and not to get it right and to try on vulnerability a little bit more.

Speaker 2:

I really think and believe, and have seen in my own leadership practice, that the more you invite people in to what's going on within limits I understand that there's some things that are confidential but the more that you can bring people in to what's happening with you and what you're thinking about and what you're, you know, wanting to experiment with, what you need some more information on, I think the more people are going to rally to try and make it happen, and the research that I've come across at least shows that the more that a leader is in tune with their team and the greater trust that there is in those relationship spaces, the more willing a team member is going to follow a leader, even if they don't have all the information. And so you know, at the end of the day. We're all humans trying to have a human experience in very human and complex ways. So be kind to yourself, extend some compassion to yourself and others. Remember that this is hard and that there are no right answers. And you're doing great. You're doing great.

Speaker 1:

And you're doing great.

Speaker 2:

That's right.

Speaker 1:

Thank you so much for joining me on Conversations, julie and Dr Thomas Anderson II. Go ahead and we can make sure that people have your LinkedIn. I think we have that. We'll put that in the show notes if people want to connect with you there. I'm looking forward to seeing what you two do in the future around this and until next time, you two keep doing great things and we'll see you soon, thank you Thanks for having us.

Speaker 2:

Thank you.