E75. Unlocking Leadership: Harnessing Coaching Frameworks for Growth w/ Brian Miller, PCC

What if you could harness the power of coaching frameworks to transform both yourself and your organization? In this episode, we sit down with Brian Miller, a professional certified coach who shares his invaluable insights into how structured coaching can foster growth across various settings. Brian explains how frameworks offer clear pathways to navigate challenges.

Our conversation takes a deeper dive into leadership development, where we dissect a comprehensive framework from P3 Leaders that includes four critical levels: leading oneself, leading others, leading teams, and leading organizations. Brian emphasizes the distinction between development and performance, providing practical advice on creating tailored frameworks that truly resonate with your target audience. This episode is packed with actionable insights on how to craft frameworks that are flexible yet provide clear guidance, ultimately accelerating individual and organizational success. Don't miss this chance to elevate your coaching practice and leadership skills!

Connect with Brian @ https://www.p3leaders.com/ or find him on LinkedIn.
Learn more by visiting and taking the course  Frameworks for Successful Coaching. 

Transcript

Coaching Frameworks and True Coaching

Speaker 1 0:00

All right. Well, welcome to Conversations where today we have Brian. And when Brian partners with an organization, it grows. His drive and personal charisma create an encouraging culture where people gain the skills they need to flourish. Through the years, brian has helped corporations, small businesses and nonprofits develop strong people cultures. Brian is a professional certified coach that's at PCC with the International Coaching Federation and has been coaching leaders since 2010. He is married to the love of his life, danelle, and they have three adult children and a pup named Patsy. Well, welcome to the show. How are you today, brian? What's going on in your world.

Speaker 2 0:48

I'm great and I thank you. You know I've gotten to know you over the last couple of years. I feel like I'm your friend, which probably maybe I am. But I think it really speaks to who you are that you are just so you make relationships so easy and so strong, and I'm sure that just really says why you are so successful at what you do.

Speaker 1 1:12

Well, thank you so much for that. I appreciate that. You know I do even around coaching. I mean, that is really a sweet spot. For me is relationship. So thank you for recognizing that and I do consider you, Brian Miller, my friend.

Speaker 2 1:28

Hey, yes, I've got one now. All right, maybe two.

Speaker 1 1:33

Great, who is Cassie? Cassie, this pup.

Speaker 2 1:37

So Cassie is a rescue, she's a golden doodle. We just had her DNA tested because, you know, we would never know how to treat her if we didn't know what her heritage was. And so she is 87%, uh, poodle, and 20 or whatever. The rest is 13% golden retriever. She is an actual golden doodle. And, uh, she is the happiest mutt. You know, I guess not a mutt, well, I maybe isn't anyway. Oh, what a great dog.

Speaker 1 2:10

What a great dog so now does she climb up on your lap? Is she one of those where she just wants to always be with?

Speaker 2 2:16

he is a lover and she's like 50, 60 pounds. So she thinks she's a lap dog.

Speaker 1 2:23

Yes, yes, yeah, that is my brother's golden doodle oh, she's great and she's.

Speaker 2 2:30

I've seen some doodles that are just kind of all over you. She's not too bad, yeah, and a rescue. I did not pay three thousand dollars, kelly, for that dog easing.

Speaker 1 2:39

That is amazing yeah because that's it. I cannot believe. I was never a dog, I was always a cat person. You know, you get a free cat and when people as I was, you know, getting older and people were really getting into their dogs and they would tell me how much they paid for their dog, I'm like good, so yay for us, I know.

Speaker 2 3:09

And that's just something about business too, because sometimes you know, in the ministry world which I've been in, people are like well, people just don't have a lot of money and I'm like you have a $400 dog, which today's a cheap dog. Yeah, I think you can pay for you to send your kid to camp, that's right, you know, or sell the dog, I don't know.

Speaker 1 3:23

Sell the dog that that's right you know or sell the dog I don't know Sell the dog.

Speaker 2 3:25

That's right, yeah, yeah, but people do. But but our dog was in a what do you call it? They were overproducing these dogs. And our daughter has the biggest heart, and so she, she's, she's. She was hosting one, and and then she had to go out of town. She's like, can you watch my dog? You know, and the dog never went home.

Speaker 1 3:48

So Wow, what a lucky dog.

Speaker 2 3:53

It's the truth right there. You're going to say well, how lucky I was. Uh, the dog, though, yes.

Speaker 1 4:00

Right, yes. Well, today we're going to be talking around frameworks and I would love to hear you just kind of bring forward what is a framework. Let's get right into it.

Speaker 2 4:12

So a framework is a pathway, maybe a solution to a problem, and so we tend to say that it's hard to be a full-time paid coach if you don't have a framework. We believe in coaching at its purest level. That coaching is what do you want to talk about today? But if you want to sell coaching, people don't buy coaching, people buy outcomes. And a framework is this sense that you can share with a client, that lets them know you one understand their problem, because they have a problem that needs solved, and that this framework will.

Speaker 2 4:53

Whether you know, it's not just a solution, but it will lead to a solution. And I think you can think about it in two ways. In one way, it's performance. It's like, oh, we want to sell more things, and so here's the things that need to be in place for you to sell more things, and we will address each of those things. Or it could be development, like a great salesperson has these five qualities and so we're going to look at those five qualities and help you develop those five qualities. And so we're going to look at those five qualities and help you develop those five qualities. Um, but it's not quite as linear. So just to give people a sense of what a framework is.

Speaker 1 5:33

Yeah, that's. And. And when you think about like framework versus models, do you have any anything to say on that? That's a great's a great.

Speaker 2 5:45

A model can be a framework, but a framework usually has more to it. So a framework probably has a model in it. It also has some resources we like to say curated resources and so this is something like if you want to grow, you know, as a leader, you could Google books on leadership or you could go to YouTube and you could. But what? What I'll do with my framework is I'll have some curated resources so that I can say here is the book you should read, here is the video you should watch. Because what's more valuable to people than money is time, and if in my framework I have the time set aside for you, I can save you time.

Speaker 2 6:35

So it could have resources, it could have a structure to it. So a model we might use a model, but the structure of our coaching may be. Maybe I'm working with an organization, I'm coaching the leader, I'm doing an assessment with the team, I'm coming in and doing some group coaching, you know. So I have a structure that I use. Even like an assessment could be part of my framework, but it's more robust than a model yeah, and thank you for clarifying that, because I think sometimes people think that they're interchangeable.

Speaker 2 7:11

Yeah yes, and you can start with a model as your framework and then build on it. I mean, it's usually the the beginning of it, to be honest.

Speaker 1 7:20

So yeah, and then you mentioned true coaching and you know, for some people who are even if we're, you know the leaders who are listening to this sometimes people know what coaching is and don't, because we know that, that word gets thrown around. So maybe just touch on a little bit about what true coaching is and how that, you know, kind of intersects with the framework.

Speaker 2 7:48

Sure, yeah, I remember listening to a pretty big business podcast. I'll even name names. It was Dave Ramsey's podcast and it wasn't Dave Ramsey talking and I don't remember the guy's name, but he said he said I'm a business coach. He says I love to coach. I tear your business apart and I put it back together. I love to coach. And I thought I must've missed that day in coaching school when you rip apart their stuff and then hand it back to them fixed.

Speaker 2 8:23

That's not coaching. Coaching is taking. The simple definition of coaching for me is taking them from where they are to where they want to go. It's that simple. It's their agenda. They are the expert of their life and of their situation, and so I can come alongside as a coach and help them clarify what they want to do, evoke new awareness, challenge assumptions, uh, build a actionable plan with them, as they are the expert. They're the ones that know their stuff more than I do and and then, uh, build some accountability around that. So that's coaching has all those aspects to it which really puts the the onus. That's. I'm just. I thought I pulled out the big words. It's a short word but it's a big word, onus. I just, I'm trying to impress you.

Speaker 2 9:17

Um onus on them, their responsibilities on them, and I think, as a leader even that's the thing is like well, people just take responsibility and also, at the same time, just do what I'm telling them. Well, I don't want them to just do what I'm telling them. I want them to take responsibility for the task that needs to be accomplished and, honestly, that's often best done through coaching. And so there's this purity of coaching that usually starts a conversation with what do you want to work on today? But a framework and we can talk about this later but a framework allows I say it's from where I am to where I want to go. A framework provides where I want to go, that's it. It still does. I still have to get from where I am to where I want to go. So the coaching still exists. It's still pretty pure coaching, if if I want it to be.

Speaker 1 10:20

And if, if somebody needs a consultant to shake things up, tear things down and show you the way to build things back up. You know, sometimes coaches are also consultants, but I think that there needs to be a clear delineation about what are we working on and is it going to be consulting? And those are agreements way in the beginning, those initial discovery conversations where that gets unpacked for sure.

Speaker 2 10:49

Yeah, the consulting comes first, most likely sets the path. What are we agreeing on? What do you want to accomplish? How are we going to get there? Maybe there are some things that I can mention that I've seen before that you might want to adopt in, and then we will coach you to get there.

Speaker 2 11:07

Yeah, and you know, that's what's missing from a lot of consulting right. You know you, you come in, kelly, you consult, you say here's 20 things you want to change about your business, brian, if you want it to be successful. And I look at it and say that's a lot you know, and that requires some major changes. And I'm just not sure about, and there it sits, my you know $50,000 consulting document on the shelf and nothing happens, or a little of it happens. But a coach comes in and says there's the document, we're going to work on it every week to get you from here to there, you know, a bite at a time, whatever it takes. I think that's what's missing.

Speaker 1 11:52

And even in the framework that you talked about, like when you mentioned a book, here's the book you should read. The client also can say well, you know what that's seat. They are saying yes or no. I mean, you can suggest that within your framework, but then it is ultimately up to the client, which is pretty powerful.

Speaker 2 12:25

It needs to be. I don't know about you, kelly, but I don't know how many conferences I went to early in my leadership life came back and said, oh wow, I now know what we need to do and it's going to change everything. You know what they're doing this in New York city and it is just really killing it there. And then I come back to my small little town and I try to do what they're doing, you know, and it's like huh, it doesn't work. And my employees look at me like you're an idiot and they know that I'll go to a conference next month and come back with what they're doing in San Antonio, texas. It's unbelievable what they're doing in San Antonio, texas, and so a coach can just help you, be the expert and say what's going to happen in your neck of the woods, what will work. You know how should it be set up there? I think the idea of just taking something and replanting it where you are, honestly it rarely works.

Speaker 1 13:31

Well fit matters, that's with the coach, but it's also about what you're working on and, like you said, how you're bringing it back. And what happens in San Antonio, texas, isn't necessarily going to work in Naples, florida, where I am, it's not going to work in Naples, florida, it's not.

Speaker 2 13:49

I mean, it depends on what it is right, but no coaching. So a framework is just this nice piece. It's one step removed from consulting. So another kind of coaching we talk about sometimes is formula coaching, which is a Dave Ramsey kind of coaching, which says I want you to get you out of debt and here's the first four steps. Now, what if I don't want to do the first step? Dave will yell at you Do the first step, just shut up and do the first step. Well, where's the coaching? How hard do you want to work? That's, we're going to coach you around how hard you want to work.

Speaker 2 14:32

It's like there's not a lot of coaching there, but a framework, and it has that sense, right? It? A framework's not completed, a framework's an outline, a framework's a structure and you can build it out. However, you know you have a lot of flexibility on how you're going to build it out. So it gives some. It gives us a lot of input to know how to really move forward quickly, but yet a lot of room for me to adapt it to my own situation.

Speaker 1 15:01

So do you have? We talked a little bit about the example and you just talked a little bit about that. Do you want to say more about an example of a framework?

Speaker 2 15:12

Sure. So a leadership development framework that I use with my. I have a business called P3 Leaders p3leaderscom, and we have a framework for leadership developments and it goes like because, first of all, it shows us that there's a difference between development and performance, development and performance. And so some people may think a company may think we want to, you know, we want to sell more of these, we want to produce more of these. We want to. You know, I don't know what it is they want to do. They have a goal and performance is great and we can coach around performance. But the other thing we can coach around is development. So people don't perform at the level that you want them to unless you develop them, and development looks a little different than performance. So I have a framework that I use that kind of shows okay, here's what development looks like. It's very simple. I don't mind sharing it at all.

Speaker 2 16:11

First thing you need to do is learn to lead yourself. You need to learn to take responsibility. You need to stop avoiding conflict. You, you, there's the, you know, you had an assessment of you. You need some self-awareness, you know about how you come across and and um, there's a lot of things there at the, at the leading yourself level.

Speaker 2 16:32

The second level, which I use, and I graphically showed as a stair step up, is leading others, and so we can all lead, we can all be leaders. I think that's you know. I can take responsibility for my deal. I may not be the leader, but I can be a leader, and that helps me know not only about myself but about others, how they're wired, how to connect, how to communicate all kinds of things. Then a next step up is leading teams, and so not only do I understand individuals, but now I understand how team dynamics work, how to have a good meeting is a team dynamic. You know that we just miss a lot of times.

Speaker 2 17:20

And then, finally, the fourth step is how to lead an organization and that's a whole that has more competencies to it. Kind of describe what the competencies are. I describe what the pain points are, so it can kind of self-assess and say, oh, here's what I'm experiencing, I probably need development in that area. And then we provide some models. There's models in there about you know how to get work done. And then we coach Okay, now you know the information, how are you going to implement that? So that's, that's the framework we use at p3 leaders yeah, and and.

Speaker 1 18:02

So where can people find a framework? What would that look like?

Speaker 2 18:06

so, even as we're talking, the best frameworks are discovered. Now you may want to just go out and buy a framework that's really successful in New York City, but it may not be the framework that works in Naples, florida, and so what I suggest and it's another framework that I have for growing a coaching practice there's this sense of start with who you know, and I think this is some of what you did. So, as I've interviewed you, I'm like well, how did you get? You know you do a lot of CEOs. You know, how did you? How do you get CEOs? And you talked to me a little bit about that. And then I dug a little deeper and it's like I knew one, I knew one.

Speaker 2 18:58

So you start with who you know and who knows you and likes you and trust you, and you coach them purely, what do you want to talk about today? And you begin to recognize the problems. And if you coach enough CEOs, or you know, uh, leaders of of small businesses, or you know leaders of small businesses, or you know whoever pastors, whoever it is, the same stuff kind of comes up over and over again and you begin to identify here are four things that every pastor needs to know to be successful and you can say, well, that's the beginning of my framework, and you start to put resources to it, you start to put a structure to it, you write a book about it, those things, and so I think you can get your framework somewhere else. And I did start to borrow a framework for P3 leaders and, as I looked at it, I just I just done enough leadership stuff. That and what I just described isn't just my invention coach yourself, lead yourself, lead others, lead teams, lead organizations. Nobody's going.

Speaker 2 20:09

Oh my gosh, that is so surprising. But what a framework really does is it goes. That's exactly it. Yes, that's probably written in every leadership book there is, because it's so simple. That's right. I'm like I actually don't think it's written in every leadership book, but it is so simple and people are afraid you're gonna, they're gonna, somebody's gonna steal my framework. I'm like you know, nobody's gonna steal. I mean, we're over, you've got to get it out there.

Speaker 1 20:42

You got to talk about it all the time, so get it out the thing is, even if somebody were to use someone else's framework, how you deliver that, your uniqueness, that's right. It matters and it is different. Yeah, and it goes back to also knowing your audience, if you will, knowing your, your clients and and understanding what their needs are.

Speaker 2 21:06

Right, yeah, and it's something we've discovered. That may sound silly. As a coach, you need to be likable, people that have a consulting mindset and maybe I'm overstating this, but at least you get what I'm saying. Tend to think well, if people would just listen to me and you know what, nobody wants to hire that person, right. Strangely enough, you know it isn't that they want you know, but a suck up or somebody kiss up. They want somebody competent but also open. I mean you, I maybe I am just sucking up to you? I don't think so, though that's you, you, you, you are competent and you're likable and you're friendly and you, you, you give respect and you command respect. So you need a good framework and you need to be a likable person, which takes a little work sometimes.

Speaker 1 22:10

Well, and it goes back to those three words that you used earlier the no like and trust factor. I mean those are imperative, and that's how business gets done regardless of what it is that is exactly right.

Speaker 2 22:23

And that's so funny too, that you say that, because I find, you know, maybe I was like this when I was 20, but when I talk to 20-somethings it's like you know, who do you know who could help? They're like well, I don't want to get it. You know, who do you know who could help? They're like well, I don't want to get it, you know, based on who I know. I want to earn it on my own merit. I'm like, which is not how anything has ever worked. I mean maybe one, you know, maybe the Olympics, but probably not even that. You know it's just, and, and you know, you and I are Christians and guess, guess what? Our faith is based on who you know, and that you can't do it on your own merit.

Speaker 1 23:02

We're not supposed to, and my grandfather told me that a long time ago. It's not what you know, it's who you know. And I remember for the longest time I was like you know, here is this you know, he was an immigrant from Italy, came over when he was 12, built his business, had three barbershops amazing man, wow. And just I remember thinking that's not right.

Speaker 2 23:29

That's right.

Speaker 1 23:30

But you know it is, and if you take those words and use them in the right way, it is. That is just how life is. And, yes, you do need to know something. You know you can't just always be relying on other people and there are other factors that go into it, but the basis of it and I love how you kind of intertwined faith in there. That was brilliant right there.

Speaker 2 23:57

Well, I was coaching a guy just graduated from college. He was looking for an opportunity and I'm like who could help you with this? And he named some people and he was just like I just don't want to ask and I don't want to bother them and I just asked him how would they feel if they knew you weren't asking them?

Speaker 1 24:18

Yeah.

Speaker 2 24:19

And he was truly like they'd be upset with me.

Speaker 1 24:23

That's right. So ask, go ask.

Speaker 2 24:29

Go ask yeah, absolutely, and you don't want to be, you know, begging and always annoying, but people do. I want to give people opportunities, that's right. I like helping people who take the opportunities and do something great with it, who take the opportunities and do something great with it. So, you know, ask for opportunities and then work really hard to be successful at the opportunities you're given, and then people will want to give you more opportunities. I think there's a thing that kind of comes out of the gospels where Jesus told the disciples go to somebody's house and if they let you stay there, let your peace rest upon. And so we call that persons of peace. And that's what you're looking for in business. You're looking for persons of peace, people who look at you and say you know what? I think we could work together.

Speaker 1 25:25

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 25:26

You know, if you're constantly trying to convince people, you're doing it wrong absolutely, absolutely.

Speaker 1 25:38

You're doing it wrong. Hit the nail on the head. I don't want to have to convince anyone. I want what I've done in the work that has been, you know, entrusted to me, for people to see that, to know that it's good work, to know that anything that Bellum touches, we want it to rise into excellence and for that to be what people see and know and want to gravitate towards and say, yes, I want to connect with you because, of course, yeah.

Speaker 2 26:11

And a framework gives you a little bit ahead of you. If they don't know you, they can at least look at that and say oh, they are addressing my problem, and people will pay for outcomes. And so when you start, as a coach, to think, well, they pay $400 a session. I don't know, but if you can solve their problem they'll pay $10,000. That's right, that's right.

Speaker 1 26:44

So you need to stop thinking about yourself, and that's another conversation around. Yeah, about and and price oh yeah and and people and what are they willing to pay as far as getting those outcomes and people reaching their goals, and why people do and why people don't. And yeah, that's another great conversation and put that down I'll come back.

Speaker 1 27:08

I'll come back oh well, let me make sure that we have your. You mentioned your p3 leaders. I want to make sure that we get that in the show notes. Can you um spell that out for me? P3leaderscom so is it p and the number three.

Speaker 2 27:27

Yep.

Speaker 1 27:28

Okay, yep, perfect Dot com. So that's where people can get a hold of you. There are three.

Speaker 2 27:33

P's there are presence, purpose and partnership. Those are the three P's and I think they just go right along with the development of leaders. I think you have to have good presence, you have to have good partnerships, you have to have purpose. I mean so, yep, that's it.

Speaker 1 27:50

Terrific, and can people find you on LinkedIn?

Speaker 2 27:53

Yes, yeah, I think P3 Leaders Brian Miller, brian with an I, not a Y, not that hippie spelling, not that crazy, it's the old-fashioned. My parents probably did drugs. I'm putting a Y in it, no.

Speaker 1 28:09

Just B-R-I-A. That's right, just like it ought to be. It's like it sounds. Oh well, brian Miller, I appreciate you, my friend, coming on and talking to us about frameworks and really why they're important, how they're different than models. So thank you for clarifying that for our listeners as well as, just, you know, allowing people to maybe get inspiration around how they can develop a framework to help their clients. So thank you for that. I want to give you the last word before I say goodbye.

Speaker 2 28:44

The last word, you know. I just think it's. I think for me, and as a Christian too, that the coaching work is kingdom work. Development is kingdom work and God believes in people. God believes because he came to die for all of us so that we could have opportunity and we can have life. I just think helping people develop is such good work and God bless all those who do it.

Speaker 1 29:18

Amen, All right, Brian Miller. Well, until next time. You keep doing great things and we'll see you soon.

Speaker 2 29:24

Thanks, Kelly.

Speaker 1 29:25

You're welcome.